tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post3484307109028490605..comments2024-03-12T22:45:16.936+01:00Comments on The Disoriented Ranger: Isn't that lovely? - Not a rant about role playing games with "light" rules (and not a review of Against the Unknown or InSpectres ...)Jens D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-87609317517978614882015-07-15T03:15:38.184+02:002015-07-15T03:15:38.184+02:00Thanks to you too. And yes, please feel free to sh...Thanks to you too. And yes, please feel free to share the post.TMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380944119153438285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-79536759837323014862015-07-15T03:15:11.476+02:002015-07-15T03:15:11.476+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.TMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380944119153438285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-44145568651609171902015-07-14T17:46:19.573+02:002015-07-14T17:46:19.573+02:00Thank you for the great response (btw, may I share...Thank you for the great response (btw, may I share your post on g+?)! It made me realize several aspects of the game I wasn't aware of before. Good idea to compare it to the Highlander tv-series and Columbo, it really brings your argument home.<br /><br />It's actually not necessary at this point to add a counter argument to the discussion, as you explain that specific style of gaming as exactly that: one way of doing it. But it made me realize a bit more what irked me with this system to begin with. A little detour (really, a short one). In the games I DM (and the one I'm tinkering with right now) I make it hard for characters to die. In an ideal case they escape death by a hair every now and then, but mostly they collect scars one way or another. Still, the danger of dying is very real in my games, but that detailed approach between "all is fine" (read: here is the clue) and "fuck, I'm dead" (read: you missed that clue) is what makes all the difference, in my opinion. I like my games gritty.<br /><br />You see, for me it's not about failing or not, but about what a character is willing to pay to push it further than he should ... Players at my table will never miss a crucial information (or die) if they are willing to pay the price. It doesn't matter what system I'm using for this to work, but I'd prefer a system that supports that style of play.<br /><br />That being said, I can't help but adding that this has changed my attitude towards AtU. With the guidelines and ideas you presented so far and a well prepared adventure it seems like a nice change of pace. ... I'll have to think about this a bit more and I'll definitely read those rules at least one more time. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll make a proper review about it, too.<br /><br />Thank you very much for taking the time. This was very interesting.Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-29925777645346699712015-07-14T05:13:01.624+02:002015-07-14T05:13:01.624+02:00And here it is:
http://porcupinegames.blogspot.hk/...And here it is:<br />http://porcupinegames.blogspot.hk/2015/07/on-finding-clues.htmlTMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380944119153438285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-71245241053831017832015-07-14T04:06:59.498+02:002015-07-14T04:06:59.498+02:00Thanks, that's very useful feedback. (And posi...Thanks, that's very useful feedback. (And positive, which is always nice.) Characters do tend to come out at the top end of the power spectrum for "ordinary" pulp heroes. A character with Brawling 3 is literally as strong in a fight as three 1-Brawling thugs. Slightly better, even. I didn't discuss that in the main rulebook in order to keep it a quick read. But it's something I should add to the GM's guide, with suggested benchmarks for different power levels. Lower for the grittier war stories, higher for things like R.E. Howard's desert adventures, and so on. <br /><br />"And I find it very interesting that you (kind of) agree with my critique on the rules for finding clues. I guess they're in there because of the GUMSHOE system?"<br /><br />I started to reply to this and went waaaay over the comment word limit, so I will make a little blog post and come back here with a link. Suffice to say I have Opinions On This Matter. TMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380944119153438285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-30122885720392315042015-07-13T17:45:16.364+02:002015-07-13T17:45:16.364+02:00Well, thank you for reading and commenting on it! ...Well, thank you for reading and commenting on it! Doesn't happen often that I get a chance to chat with the person behind the game ... And I find it very interesting that you (kind of) agree with my critique on the rules for finding clues. I guess they're in there because of the GUMSHOE system?<br /><br />As I wrote in the post, my impression was a light but well balanced system. It does a lot and there are some great ideas. I especially liked how shock and mental illness are used ("desperate to win", for instance, is a great rule) and the mini-games at the table to make them work. The cooperation rules are great, too. Good stuff :-)<br /><br />But the best thing was the character creation. The idea to limit access to abilities with cards the players have to exchange among each other worked very well not only in defining the individual characters, but also for creating a well balanced group. We had some knowledge about the 1920s at the table, so it wasn't that hard to create some believable characters (but I imagine it difficult for people without any knowledge of the period).<br /><br />The only problem I had with spending points and contests was that I think the characters had been way too powerful. I had 4 players with highly specialized characters: a con man/scientist, a spy, a social butterfly and a librarian. There was nothing they couldn't get done with this combination, one of them was bound to be very good in an ability they needed, so I had a (very) hard time making this challenging for them. It's easy enough fixed by giving them fewer points in the beginning, so it's not that big of a problem.<br /><br />What I really missed, though, were GM procedures. I'm totally able to improvise a game from scratch, but over time I grew very fond of little things like morale checks and random tables and ... it's really hard to put a finger on it, but most of the time when I read in a set of rules that the GM is to decide something, I think that's something a system should do. But I'm strange that way.<br /><br />Anyway, we didn't get a chance to test all the rules (no time for a gun fight or stuff like that) and I don't think I'll get a chance to DM this again the way it is (I'd ditch the clue rules, give less points for character generation and (maybe) play a bit with the die range). But one of my players was very enthusiastic about your game. She's completely new to the hobby and I believe it'd be a great game for her to start DMing (she studied history, for one), especially with that fantastic mix of pulp story, adventure and rules ... And I'd really like to give this a spin as a player.<br /><br />I could write more, but I believe those are most of my first impressions and opinions. I hope that's what you had in mind ...Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-32453985870865020262015-07-13T08:09:39.415+02:002015-07-13T08:09:39.415+02:00Thanks for this not-a-review, it's really good...Thanks for this not-a-review, it's really good to read your impressions of Against the Unknown. <br /><br />Apart from the clue-finding stuff (your thoughts on which I kind of agree with, but that's probably a different discussion), how did you find the mechanics - contests, spending points, character creation, etc?TMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380944119153438285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-88590876055405512002015-06-21T23:26:52.404+02:002015-06-21T23:26:52.404+02:00As a matter of fact, one player showed interest in...As a matter of fact, one player showed interest in DMing InSpectres and one really liked AtU, so I might end up playing both games occasionally :) Other than that, you are right, of course. It would be the right thing to do. Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-64479418856368663792015-06-21T23:23:40.977+02:002015-06-21T23:23:40.977+02:00If the players really enjoy it, I would recommend ...If the players really enjoy it, I would recommend that you bite the bullet and run it occasionally as a change of pace game.Darnizhaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067874224412746414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-54046971321027168242015-06-21T21:37:34.623+02:002015-06-21T21:37:34.623+02:00The "players never fail" thing is all ov...The "players never fail" thing is all over the place, btw, and I don't like it either way (even scaling encounters feels wrong to me, players get what is around and what they decide to attack or run away from ...).Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-26952116809070221592015-06-21T21:25:01.667+02:002015-06-21T21:25:01.667+02:00There can be a distinction between story games and...There can be a distinction between story games and rules light games. I believe it's basically that story games are customized towards one theme and the players have more control of the narrative than they would in a traditional rpg and need less rules because of their focus (examples I had in mind could be My life with Master or InSpectres), while rules light games keep it basic and general with rules that allow a fast and easy resolution system for all situations (like Against the Unknown or Epées & Sorcellerie). So the main distinction lies in the specific vs. the basic, in my opinion.<br /><br />Giving away narrative powers as a DM doesn't work well for me, as I feel reduced to a mere referee. I can't contribute anymore to the game and am simply administering game functions that no one else would.<br /><br />Rules light games, at least the ones I played and DMed, always left me with a feeling that something was lacking. Mostly I'm talking about things here a DM is able to improvise, so it's not that big of a problem, but I think a system can have a function of "watching" a DM, if he plays it by the rules. And I believe that demands some sort of depth/complexity. You know, I really like that kind of "crunch" in game that makes a DM think about his options and restrictions (ideally that kind of complexity is mostly on the DM side of the game, not so much for the players ...).<br /><br />But I don't know your game and couldn't say if I would like it or not (is it available on your blog?). I'd certainly give it a look, so please, promote away. Give names and all.<br /><br />Also: Would you consider Vampire: The Masquerade to be a "story game"?Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-16342776244352279962015-06-21T21:00:16.561+02:002015-06-21T21:00:16.561+02:00Yeah, I would add that your dislike is not necessa...Yeah, I would add that your dislike is not necessary for "Rules Light" games, actually, but towards what I believe are called "Story Games" and are promoted by the "Indie Revolution" group of RPG designers, which tend to be Rules Light. There is a difference between those two. When you pick up a "Story Game" I think you're likely to find several features in common with each other. One is that the GM's role tends to be (sometimes vastly) diminished, and two, the GM is told that the "Players can not fail", which is often phrased as "Never Say No". I'm not quite sure about the universal prevalence of these two game design goals in "Story Games" but I think it's generally true that they lean in this direction. <br /><br />On the other hand I am certain that there are Rules Light systems out there that are not Story Games. I could point you to one (mine), but risk sounding self-promoting, so I won't, but will instead simply say that Rules Light games should not be mistaken for Story Games in all cases. Some Rules Light games might actually do what you'd think they should - make GMing faster and easier, without altering the normal modality of DMing.vbwyrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14031787268876015417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-19282365655223103452015-06-21T20:55:35.796+02:002015-06-21T20:55:35.796+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.vbwyrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14031787268876015417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-75552201764771182522015-06-21T19:21:25.079+02:002015-06-21T19:21:25.079+02:00True, the lack of failure is one of my main beefs ...True, the lack of failure is one of my main beefs with those games. Initially the DM was important for avoiding omnipotent players, having narrative control with a neutral party at the table is strongly connected with this idea, of course. And yet, I believe there is an important distinction between those two functions of a DM (narrative control and limiting access to power) and a third aspect that allows the system to control some of the DM's powers ("watching the watchmen", so to say). If all those facets are in a game, it's most likely a game I'd be happy to DM. In the cases I know, those games are mostly if not heavy with rules so at least with some depth to them.<br /><br />But it'd also be interesting to see a more complex game with some of the designs described above ... Jens D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18394303166081684904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6617677799085549365.post-57993918392230763922015-06-21T18:28:32.573+02:002015-06-21T18:28:32.573+02:00Your distaste seems to be more aimed at the core c...Your distaste seems to be more aimed at the core concept of the game - no failure - rather than the lack of rules. Incredibly complex rule systems could still have this feature. I completely agree with your distaste for the lack of failure and the fun of connecting disparate plot points created in play.Luke Gearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01560869081440423091noreply@blogger.com